Nicky Butt exclusive: Why he left Man United, how their youth system fell behind and learning from M

Nicky Butt spent 12 years in Manchester United’s first team before joining Newcastle United, Birmingham City and Hong Kong’s South China.

Then, after nine years coaching back at United — rising to become head of first-team development — he stepped down suddenly last March.

Here, in his first major interview since leaving that coaching role, Butt tells The Athletic why he felt he had come “to the end of the road” at the club he loved, what he learned from Louis van Gaal and Jose Mourinho, how United’s youth system fell behind, why he has been learning Spanish and taken a chief-executive course and how important it is to “breed winners”.

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What are you doing now?

I had some quality time off and I’m trying to upscale myself. I’ve been learning Spanish in the last couple of years – I did a lot on Zoom in the lockdown. I’m enjoying it but it’s hard when people speak quickly to me in Spanish.

I’ve been doing a CEO course and a bit of coaching at Salford City and other places just to keep my foot in the game. So I’m waiting for the next opportunity.

What does the CEO course entail, and why did you decide to do that?

When I was at Man United, I felt I was at my weakest in the boardrooms. I’ve done all my coaching badges, (UEFA) Pro Licence, the lot. I spoke to David Gill (former Manchester United chairman) and he suggested that it was a good idea to add more strings to my bow. I’m not saying I want to be a CEO, but I want to have empathy with that side of the world and how directors or executives think.

Did you feel that executives could sometimes look down on you because you were a former player?

I’ve felt that and maybe I had a chip on my shoulder about it, but I could moan about it and ask, ‘What do they know?’, or I could learn and see how tough their role actually is and what challenges they face. Knowing their world can only help me become a better manager, if that’s what I’m going to do; or a better coach, head of an academy or (help with) first-team development.

What’s the ultimate goal?

I did my coaching badges because I wanted to manage. I’ve been in football all my life. I wouldn’t say it’s the only thing I know, but it’s what I’m best at and most comfortable doing.

I like helping young players develop — not just as players but as people. Some who don’t understand football think you just go and train and then go home. It’s so much more. You have to become the right person, live the right way, manage your affairs and manage your finances and manage yourself. Your career goes really quickly. It’s gone in a flash.

If you’re a talented young footballer, that takes care of itself in the right environment — which most clubs are. It’s the surrounding stuff which messes footballers up – hangers-on, people that pretend to care about you but, the minute you are of no monetary value to them, they turn away from you.

That sounds like you knew lots of players who experienced that…

Yes. Lots didn’t (make it) because of injuries; others because of lifestyle or making the wrong choices. Or they fell out of love with the game for one reason or another. It is getting harder for young players: social media is a goldfish bowl. There is never a time when you can switch off. In my era, if you did something wrong, you probably had three or four days to try and explain it, try and squash it or sort it out.

So you might have gone out to a club in town and had a few drinks?

Yes. That’s life, isn’t it? The manager might have had a word and it stayed internal. Youngsters now have five minutes and then it’s on Twitter. It’s difficult. They need help on and off the pitch and I have a passion to help.

Why did you leave Manchester United in March?

I felt I was pretty much at the end of the road. I went back before Sir Alex retired and had nine or 10 years’ coaching. My first job was as assistant coach of the reserves with Warren Joyce. I managed the reserves when Joycey left, then I was the academy manager. Then I went to head of first-team development. From there, I couldn’t see where my next step was.

When I get frustrated in a role or a job, as I did, I’m a different kind of person. I become irritable, not happy. I blame everybody else. The same thing happened to me as a player. When I start getting that feeling, I need to get out.

As a player, I saw people I thought I was better than — in fact, I knew was better than — playing rather than me and that made me miserable. I wasn’t happy with my training, I would come home miserable. It was time to leave United as a player and that’s why I spoke to the manager then.

This time, I was getting irritated about some of the stuff going on at the club. I felt irritable within myself. I needed to change. Most people don’t leave Man United unless they have something lined up. I had nothing lined up. I just knew my personality, how I react to things and that it was time to leave. I didn’t know where my next step was at the club. I wanted to evolve and one day I woke up and thought, “This isn’t for me any more.” If I’d stayed, it would have gone one way which would have been bad.

I did the right thing and got myself out of the club I loved in the right way. I left amicably. I spoke to Ed Woodward (executive vice-chairman), who was great with me. We shook hands and I walked away. That was March and I don’t regret it.

It will always be my club and I wish Manchester United all the best.

How did Manchester United change while you were there as a coach?

Sir Alex left all of a sudden and the dynamics started to change – and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. You need to learn from outside your bubble and I’d done that when I went to Newcastle as a player.

(Ferguson’s successor) David Moyes was brilliant with me. He did things his way but I actually liked watching him work. David could see my passion for coaching; he gave me the under-19s team, which was a big team for me, taking the young lads into Europe. Things were different, but I learned. It’s not even about liking people or not if you can learn from them.

I was so fortunate as a player that I’d had consistency for such a long time from a man I respected. Most players don’t get to play under the best ever.

David left (in April 2014) and we did a few games with Giggsy (in interim charge). I was so proud to walk out onto the bench with my friends and try to lead the team. We knew Ryan wasn’t going to get the job, so we wanted to enjoy the experience. And there I was, sitting on the bench with a lad I’d played with from United’s under-12s.

Louis van Gaal came in. I’ve heard what people say about him. He was totally different to anything I’d ever seen in my life in the way he managed his set-up. He was firm and partitions went up for meetings. At first, I was thinking, “This isn’t right, this is not how we do things.” But it was no longer “we” — that world had gone.

Van Gaal respected United’s past but wanted to do things his way. His training and management was very structured. I really enjoyed watching how he trained with his coaches. They were good people, it was good for me to learn and I speak highly of Louis. He was approachable, he had a phenomenal CV.

And then Jose (Mourinho) came in. Again, an unbelievable character. I was his academy manager so I wondered what it would be like. The reality was that he spoke to me every single morning at breakfast. He asked me about young players, he was approachable, he was helpful. He was single-minded and selfish – and whether you like it or not, that’s what the best managers are.

He would ask me which players I wanted to move up. He asked, “Who is this kid Greenwood?” when Mason was 15. “Bring him to train with us”, and I said, “We can’t, because he’s at school and there are rules and regulations.” I pushed Scott McTominay and explained that he was a good kid who he’d like; one who was aggressive, can run and pass. Jose had him training and Scott never looked back.

Jose sat with the under-19s ahead of a trip to Portugal. He told them what to expect, he said that Victor Lindelof will be the next big player. Jose was good and, for an elite manager with his record, he was very, very good with me.

He walked into the room and you knew he was the boss. If he had a stern face you knew he wasn’t in the good mood but at other times he had a laugh. He had his own coaches who he trusted and I don’t blame him. He’d laugh and joke with them and I got on with all of them.

It would have been easy – and very arrogant – for me to say, “What do these people know? This is our club. I played here, I’m a Mancunian, what do they know?” So I didn’t. My attitude was that I wanted to take a bit from all of them.

How did the youth system change at United?

We did fall behind, if we’re honest. Ed, the board and the owners did realise it and that it needed an influx of money to keep up with the other teams and we got that. United bought some of the top young players in Europe, like Hannibal (Mejbri). We bought some very good full-backs from Spain. You could see other clubs saying, “Man United are back on it.”

We got stuck into thinking that every young player wanted to come to Man United and that we didn’t need to work. (But) We did. There are other big clubs close to us who could also challenge for players. It got noticed and it changed.

We have to stay on the front foot and we have to keep buying the best players. You can’t rely on local lads all the time.

 

So if there’s a talented kid in Gorton, east Manchester — where you came from — would United be in a position to get him?

Gorton’s mainly City. United would be able to get a talented player from there. All the areas are covered.

Has the DNA of the club changed?

The history gives the club the DNA. That won’t change, because the fans won’t allow it, but what can change is the people working for the club. Look at those who were there — Eric Harrison (former youth manager) and Jim Ryan (former director of youth football). You have to have these people around the club to tell young players about the history.

Kieran McKenna is a coach who came from Tottenham. He was a breath of fresh air, a very good coach. He’s on it. He didn’t get to the top of football (as a player) so his next thing was, “I’m going to be the very best coach I can be.” He’s very, very, very good.

You brought McKenna in, didn’t you?

I did. I saw him coaching at Tottenham during a training weekend. We’d take players there pre-season, join in training with Spurs, mix the teams up. I knew he would leave Tottenham. I think it’s important to bring outside people in, but it’s also very important to keep the people who know the club and know the history of the club.

Me? I just carried the baton for the next generation. I passed it to (head of academy) Nick Cox and now it’s his turn to carry the baton. He’s very good at his job. He came in as my shadow director. He knew the rules and the regulations and the stuff I wasn’t great at. I recognised that at an early stage. We mirrored each other very well.

How did you feel when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer came back?

A long-standing friend joined the club. I thought it was great. He knew the club, knew the academy, knew the first team and had played for it. I felt like United were back when he came back. It wasn’t like Jose or Louis weren’t great, but they took time to know the club before they were off and running.

I was the first person Ole saw when he came into the dressing room as a player. I was the first person he saw when he came in as manager. He liked that, I liked that. I wanted the best for the academy and, from a selfish point of view, it was a big ticked box when he came.

Things are getting better and Ole has done a very good job. There’s a lot of love for Ole from fans, but that only takes you so far with fans. The biggest challenge for Ole now is to go and produce — to win a title or trophies. He’ll know that deep down, he’s a very intelligent guy. It’s a business that needs to win and there has been huge investment into that business so it’s calling out to win.

What type of manager would you be?

I was brought up playing football the right way — you play out from the back, you entertain the fans who spend their hard-earned money. But I also know that’s not always possible. You have to have different ways of winning.

If I do get a manager’s job, it won’t be in the Premier League. It might be fighting in League One or the Championship. That’s not about playing the best football ever. Everyone wants perfection, but my challenge might be avoiding relegation, or getting a cup-run for money, or promotion. All of those ideas excite me.

You don’t just want footballers who can only play the pretty way. Look at the best Man United team — the 1994 team. If you wanted to play football against them, they’d outplay you. If you wanted to fight, they’d outfight you. If you wanted to run, they’d outrun you. I tried to instil that in the academy.

If you wanted to play drinking games they’d outdrink you, too! I didn’t try and instil that but the ’94 team were an absolute team and that’s who we looked up to. They were all beasts and you wouldn’t want to mess with any of them. They were idols to us.

I’m not naive enough to think that players like this are easy to find in lower leagues, but you have to find the right characters and build a squad. If I took over a team, there would be no excuse for fitness. I’d need characters that would find a way to win because that’s what it’s about. Winning. You need to find a way to win.

Of course I lost games as a kid, but I don’t remember them. I only remember winning and too many people around football development say winning isn’t anything, that it’s about bringing players through. What’s the point of bringing a player through if they always lose? Most of the successful United players who came through were winners. They won or got through to the latter stages of the Youth Cup or had success with England. You have to breed winners.

Would you leave Manchester?

Yes. I’d go anywhere in the world. I’ve left Manchester before. I watch my former team-mates closely – Wayne (Rooney, the Derby County manager), Phil (Neville, the former England Women boss now in charge at Inter Miami in MLS). They took themselves out of their comfort zone. They show character and that gets you what you deserve.

As a manager, you’ll have tough times and get crap off the press. I know that – and I’m fine with the media. I wasn’t when I started in my first interviews – or my first managerial speeches, but you learn. I remember seeing Nev (Gary Neville) on Sky Sports at first and he was shit, and I told him. Now he’s the best, by a mile. And you have to be prepared for questions – journalists have a job to do too.

As you get older, you have more empathy for what others do. When I was 20, I didn’t. I thought journalists were tossers, but then you grow up, learn more about football and the world. And the football world is still one I have a lot to offer.

(Top image: Getty Images, design by Sam Richardson for The Athletic)