Kami: Hi welcome to woman evolving
I’m your, one of your hosts, Kami
and we're really excited this is our first format that we're going to be going through every month where we have different topics and different panelists and we're going to be talking about these subjects and sharing our own personal evolution and see if we can add on to others.
So welcome we're glad to have you here, and I’m' going to let the panelists introduce themselves. I'm Kami and we're all get to know each other more but I’ll have everyone say who they are, what they're going to talk about, and Jenna.
Jenna: Hi! I'm Jenna and today and I'm going to talk about making your evolution known and some do's and don'ts for uh communicating with your friends and family about this new person you're becoming.
Kami: Hm. I like it. Okay, Crystal Scott is going to be talking about Sex Ed 101 the Female Orgasm part 1 she [laughs] but she uh can't make it right now so we're going to continue recording but we're going to come back with um some of the panelists and record hers so stay tuned. Hers is going to be the last and is going to be [laughs] it will be the [laughs] climax of the [laugh] of the podcast. [They are all laughing.] Ba dum psh.
Someone in background: So perfect. I think that is going to happen a lot with the sex Ed 101 series.
[They are all laughing]
Kami: Yeah, that, just sit back and relax. It's gonna happen. So [laughs] okay [laughs] and then um let's see next Crystal Miller.
Crystal: I'm Crystal Miller. Uh I will be talking about how to navigate divorce without turning it into a nightmare.
Kami: Yes, We can use that. Okay. And Brooke is next.
Brooke: Hi I'm Brooke. And I will be talking about respectful dialogue. How to talk about difficult subjects with your friends and family.
Kami: Awesome. And Rose!
Rose: Hi! I'm Rose. And I will be talking about the value of women in male dominated fields. Specifically today police work. How that can help the people that we are sworn to protect.
Kami: Hm. And she has experience so we're excited to hear that. Um, let's go to personal evolution. We have making your evolution known with Jenna.
Jenna: Okay! Hi! Today I'm going to talk about making your evolution known. So my first question for you guys is when did you stop believing the um year and date and how did you let your believing friends and family know about this change in your life?
Kami: Now when you say believe, are you referring to our religion?
Jenna: Yes. And uh we can I think use this in multiple contexts, I tried to keep it open ended. So, uh ,I'm referring to when I stopped believing in my religion.
But I think there's also room to interpret that as when you stopped uh beli- having the mindset that you had. Uh, you could be transitioning form uh a republican to a democrat and it could be a very strong shift. And you're feeling like you want to tell people about it so they stop, you know, sending you coupons for guns n ammo in the mail. Or whatever. [laughs] I don’t know.
Kami: [laughs] no, you're right
Jenna: [still laughing] so this is in the context of me leaving Mormonism. And um, I had been a blogger so several years and I had taken very seriously the leadership's advice that we should be using our public platforms to try to convert together people and spread the gospel. um, and so I knew I wanted to make that known in a public way because I would have a hard time pretending, you know, there was no way that I could go forth being the same person online hiding this from everyone.so I knew I needed to make it known.
But I also knew that it was really important that I talk to my parents first. Um, and so, I, uh, stopped believing sometime in 2012. I told them, uh, just after Christmas of that year. And then within the next year I put up a blog post and, uh, then, I’m not sure where I’ll go from this point. But for anyone who has read my blog form then and now it is very apparent that I’ve made the shift. And I’d love to hear, uh, for all of you, I know in this context, we'll all be talking about leaving Mormonism, because that's what we have in common. Um, kami, I’d looooove to... (can't hear)
Kami: You want me to go?
Jenna: Yeah yeah
Kami: Umm, so it was just last year. And I had, I already had family members that had, I I don’t like the term 'leaving the church' but had realized that it just wasn't for them, um, for years, and so there was a safe place for me to fill. um, but, what what questions do you want me to answer?
Jenna: Yeah, I'd love to hear, as in, functionally, how you approached that. Did you call people on the phone or talk to them in person or announce something on Facebook.
Kami: Oh ga- [sigh] yeah, I just like, making it known I knew who to go to I knew who was safe to talk to. And I I expressed it in different forms of writing and poetry on Facebook. With it being vague enough that um some of some of my friends that were still active Mormons would not necessarily interpret it that way but it was still my way of uh creatively expressing it. and um but I definitely needed to call people at certain times and process that um, as well as journaling and um, expressing myself through writing.
Jenna: Yeah. I- I can hear the- the maturity in your respons- I felt a very strong desire to like boom! Like punch everybody in the face with this information! And I really appreciate your, uh, much more subtle and mature approach.
Kami: Ohh I was angry for a lot of reasons because I was rejected by by people who were my friends but-
Jenna: We'll get into that (later)...
Kami: Yeah yeah
Jenna: Um, Brooke or crystal, I’d love to hear form either of you.
Crystal: Um, this is crystal. I actually, um, I I lived in Utah. I was in California at the time that I decided. and I came home from Utah about thre- er I came home to Utah about three days later and I, um, immediately called my dad and my husband who were in Kenya on a humanitarian mission to let them know I left the church. And after I talked to them I called my mom to let her know because I didn’t want, um, I didn’t want any guessing or questioning or wondering.
I've just I've I've always been really upfront like that anyway. And so as soon as I made the decision and as soon as I was home, I was like I’m just going to let everybody know right now. And and to me, my husband and my parents were the most important. That you know everyone else can hear it through the grapevine and I didn't care. But wanted them to hear it from me.
Jenna: Yeah, Yeah. And-
Brooke: Um, this is Brooke.
Jenna: Hi Brooke!
Brooke: Hi! [laughs] I I have kind of two different, uh, stories. One is when is topped going to church in 1997 I lived outside of Utah and most of my family lived in Utah. And so I uh I kind of isolated myself. I didn’t really talk much to my family. Just visited once a year. And this was back when cell phones weren’t big and it cost money to call people so it was kind of easy for me to just kind of put religion up on a shelf and live a very secular life and not say anything.
and then, when I decided to resign from the church officially two years ago, I was back in Utah, I lived in Utah for two years, and, I, went and talked to my mom about two months after I officially resigned and told her that I had resigned. Um, I had changed a lot as a person, I had more dialogue skills. I had a closer relationship to her. And so, like crystal, I valued her getting it straight form me and not hearing it through the grapevine.
Jenna: yeah
Brooke: Big difference when when you have the like you were saying with the maturity. Once you learned that there is a certain way to express yourself in a respectful manner then you deal with coming out of the closet so to speak or changing your belief system in a very different way.
Jenna: Yeah. And what about you rose?
Rose: Well mine was really progressive and gradual. It- I never really believed it. I never liked the church. I didn’t like anything about it. And but all my friends were. I mean I was raised in Utah so all my friends of course were Mormon except for a few that were like outcasts and I grabbed onto them. But I didn't actually leave the church. For some reason, I mean, you know that that pull. Somebody would ask what religion and I would say I’m Mormon. Even though I didn’t believe it, I didn’t like it, talking about it I would still say I was Mormon.
Jenna: Yeah
Rose: And then when I went to the Middle East the first time and I went to Bethlehem. And I said okay where's this cross. I mean here's the manger, okay there it is. Now take me show me where this cross is. 'well we don’t know'. show me where the tomb was. 'well we don’t know.' but this olive tree over here jesus picked form and he taught kids on this rock over here. and I’m like so you're telling me that Jesus picked olives but you don’t know where he hung on the cross. or you don’t know- and these were all the Christian Palestinians. but you know they are good people but they of course they don’t really believe there was really a cross.
I mean the idea of Christianity was so different in the place where it was supposedly begun. that I just, completely rejected Christianity at that point. because everything is- I mean they moved the garden of Gethsemane four times. I’m like so where was it really? and there is no record of it on any of the- and maps from the old Ottoman days. there is no record of any garden like that. so factually that's what did it. then when I came back here, that's when I decided you know what I’m taking my name off the Mormon roll.
I mean the connection to investments. To Saudi Arabian oil. To- in my studies there's all these things that Mormons are tied up in like they have wards in- in Saudi Arabia but yet the Catholics who are the oldest Christian religion aren't allowed there. so things just didn’t make sense. and that s when I started looking at Mormonism as more of a of a business. a corp- actually a multinational corporation.
Jenna: Yeah
Rose: so I had my name taken off and what I did was invite everybody I know to my party.
[they all laugh]
Rose: And so it's like okay if you're okay with me leaving. you'll come. I won’t like I won’t like bash Mormons. I won’t say anything mean. I won’t be disrespectful. but know that this is a celebration of my letter and it’s going to be framed and in the middle of the party. so people went. you know, I lost family members. I lost friends. I lost- but I found a whole new group of people. and most of them actually were never Mormon. but I just thought you know, these people, I have to set it aside and that's what I did.
Jenna: Yeah! Oh I don’t know that I’ve heard of a party like that before rose. I love that idea. I think it we might it might become a new trend. now that you’ve described it here. we'll see it come up on pinterest. Um, I, one thing I love hearing about these all of these different experiences is how I think they're so dependent or they’re so different based on both age of the person they're leaving and the time period that they're leaving in.
Umm, and how there's, I'm 29, and I think there's a lot of younger people who are for the first time with social media trying to figure out what it means to change who you are with an audience of hundreds or thousands of people who have been been interested in you or following you. uh, based on you as person A and how do you figure out how to become person B and I I love I just love hearing all the different experiences of everyone else.
Um, and, uh, then really quickly, I would just love to hear from you guys. how you felt after the information was public. um, because i think sometimes I think I know that my family has a hard time with um, the fact that I’m public. I I think they actually mind my public nature more than they do that I left. Both are hard but they would prefer that I just live my life in san francisico without being public about it. Um, and I I wish I could help them understand how freeing that authenticity is for me. That it it felt so wonderful to be myself one hundred percent. and I’d love to hear, was it the same for you guys, were there other feelings that you had as well?
Brooke: Well I think with me, I've I'm pretty public on facebook with a lot of my opinions. I have, uh, tried to be more diplomatic about who sees my posts. Uh, I’ve put most of my family on my friends list. And then everyone else on my close friends list. [laughs] because I don’t want uh I don’t want my family members to think that I am against them.
And since the people in the mormon church tend to attach their ego to the church and to their faith, I don’t, they tend to be offended and feel like they're being attacked. When, when the church itself like the church leadership and the church organization, is is usually what I will attack if I if I say anything publicy.
and so, I tried to be more sensitive about their feelings and their and their entitlement to their life within the church if that makes them happy that's fine. and um, I think I think there just has to be a respect level there and um, so that's what i've found that happy medium. where I can express myself but at the same time respect what my family wants to hear. [laughs]
Jenna: Um, and Kami?
Kami: Well for me um, I, I realized I went through this process and I had different lists of people on my facebook and my social media um so that certain things would be see by certain people and certain things wouldn't and I had to always make sure it was custom and when there was so much attacking on ordained women that I was involved with and people were so cruel with kate's trial um, this last summer then it just my gloves came off I was I was just done pretending like like trying to be nice and trying to have the soft approaches to everything. I took a lot of people off that were cruel to me.
Um, and, slowly but surely, I I I did something that I have never done. I have always been a real people collector. I love collecting friendships. Um, like people take really good care of a collection of dolls. I take really good care of my collection of friendships. [laughs] and, so I love, I love it. and yet I really set back and looked at my facebook and went 'I have a connection with these certain people only because we went to the same church and I know that at any given moment they might feel free to slam my thought or just pick a fight over something because they like Brooke said attach their ego to it. and I I chose not to have them on there.
and it wasn’t anything personal, like, I didn’t like 'oh I hate that person' it was just I just wanted to start over again. I wanted to start over with people who gave me space to be myself. does that make sense? I didn’t want anyone on my facebook who looked at me- I knew they were looking at me going ‘isn’t it so sad that satan has deceived her? the brightest. the brightest.' you know just [laughs] I I just, for me, I just had to let go of collecting people for that sake and just start over again with people that wanted to have an authentic relationship.
Jenna: Yeah, I I love this discussion of self-care and self-preservation. Um, I think, we'll get into that in a little bit with the do's and don'ts list. but that's something that's so important for us to do for ourselves and for us to allow other people this space to do. I’m a firm believer in not caring if people unfriend me or unfollow me. Because I do it to people as a method of self care and i want to allow everyone else the space to do so as well. Um, and crystal or rose if you guys have anything to share? you know, how you felt after you went public?
Rose: Well, this is rose, I just felt great but like I said, I had already built myself up a great support system. I just felt like I already had that support system. but it was easier for me because I was older and because my son, I never encouraged him in any religious direction, I let him choose for himself, I never made him do anything religiously. and he's sort of an agnostic spiritual maybe I don’t like the name spiritual necessarily but uh, he's just a good-doer. if that makes sense.
and my parents had passed. my mom was almost 50 when she had me so I was lucky that my parents had already died. and, because that seems to be with my other friends that leave the church, a very big issue. they don’t want to hurt hteir parents. siblings not as important, but the parents. so it was easier for me that way. but I was ecstatically excited when I left [they all laugh] and I never looked back.
Kami: Orgasmically excited [they all laugh] "I'm free" [more laughing]
Several voices in background:
Hey that's for the sex ed 101 section, you know
well yeah you discover your sexual freedom of worth and all of a sudden you like having fun with yourself 50 times a day you know
[they all laugh]
oh my gosh
[more laughing]
Kami: uh you can chime in when crystal does her orgasm lessons. Or her stuff, rose. And then Crystal did you have anything you wanted to share?
Crystal: Um, I ju- I felt an overwhelming like release of pressure really because the three days that I was traveling that I knew I had to tell people I was scared to death. and I did not know what to expect. I didn’t know how my parents and my husband at the time would respond. I really, I mean i really was walking into um what I felt like was uh uh an abyss and I didn’t know what to expect. and so when you know it it went all things considered it went relatively well when I told each of them.
so once it was done it was just this immense relief of like okay that's it. they know. you know there's nothing else i have to do. I was very up front about it. I was very clear about it. and its done. and so for me that’s, and you know, I, I don’t tend to put a lot on my personal facebook page, um, mostly because the one time I did it turned into a shitstorm and that was not fun for me at all. So, um, so I tend to keep it within the groups and and things like this podcast and stuff. and just keep anything that's um volatile off of my facebook page.
Jenna: Yeah I was 8 months pregnant when I was waiting to tell my parents and uh I wrote in my notes that I really thought I would develop an ulcer . I mean like that christmas was torture for me becauase I I wanted to wait until after christmas because I didn’t want to ruin christmas for them. I probably did anyway. I’m sure that christmas 2012 was like a horrible christmas for them. but uh, you know, waiting just that week with them and trying to pretend like there wasn’t this enormous news. that was awful. that was hard. I’m very glad it's all behind me now.
Um, so I wanted to run through a list of do's and dont's that I came up with for people who are thinking about um, how they want to share their evolution wherever they're at.
The first one was Do tell the person who mean the most to you in a private setting. this may be your news but it's a shared relationship and all of you need the room to process this shift that you're both going to be going through.
And when it come to your parents, your family, even though you might feel frustrated in some ways at them, or at at their belief system, your past shared belifs sytem, you don’t want to damage these relationships in the long term. Because, you you sometimes you can't un-do that damage. And you don’t want to live with that.
And, um, I think private setting doesn't have to mean face to face. it can mean a phone call like you said, I think crystal right, that you you had family in africa and you gave them a call and let them know. and I think you should think carefully about the method you use. But email, a written letter that you hand deliver or have sent through the mail, even a text message, in my opinion, is better than your parents finding out over a public facebook announcement and having to feel like they were just thrown in with you know the rest of the the mix of soup of people.
um, do write out what you're going to say even if you're going to have a face to face conversation. I typed my thoughts out on my phone and just read directly from it. when I was talking to my parents. and it really helped me pull all of the negative emotions out of out of of the conversation and really focus on where I'm at and why this is happening and I love you and I want to have a relationship with you.
um, do ask for if you are doing a written statement and and once you’re ready to make something more public. I’m a firm believer in asking for proofreading. um, for your statement and ask them directly to push out or edit out any negative agenda that may be manifesting itself. I had- this made such an enormous difference for me, and uh, I ha-, I’m a firm believer in this being really really important. Because sometimes we can't, uh, we can't see the message that we're portraying to other people because we're so wrapped into it.
do extend the invitation to ask questions and learn more. uh, so far in my family, my grandma's both grandmas have bene the only ones to sit down with me and try to learn more about where I’m at and how I got here. which really meant a lot to me. and I think maybe sometimes that's because other people feel like they can't talk to me about it.
um, do expect that some people will react in hurtful ways. and this isn't something that you control. and a lot of those times those reactions are about them and not about you. and we we just have to accept that if we’re putting this out into the universe in this public way that this is going to be something we deal with. um, if I would say that the thing I think is most important in this process, is if you are in a relationship, do make it clear to your family and friends that the information you are sharing in no way represents the views and beliefs of your partner. so my husband and I we went through our faith transition at the same time but I think that, well maybe not now since I’m saying it here, but like there are still people who don’t know where he's at. and I’m not going to describe exactly where he's at, even now, that's his story to tell. but, we did faith transition at the same time. and there were a lot of people who thought maybe he was still going to church. maybe he was still in the same place. because I was really explicit about this just being about me.
and one reason that we really worked hard to structure things this way was we saw a lot of married couples where the in laws were blaming the son in law or daughter in law for their child leaving. they needed a reason why this happened to their child. why all their efforts to get the righteous child to stay in the church were failing so they blamed the child's spouse. and I think it's negatively affecting a lot a lot of relationships. and so be very explicit with the people you tell and as you share this message that this is about you. that you made these choices for yourself. and no one else lead you know lead you out.
don't expect a lot of people to contact you and express that they secretly feel the same way. this one's maybe a little more light hearted but this information was so revolutionary to me. I thought that maybe other people other friends of mine from byu and high school were feeling the same way and I thought that I would reveal this information and that people would be messaging me privately and then I would have all these cool friends that were on the same page as me and that did not happen. at all.
um, and so, you know, um, I think, leading on to the next one, don’t make your announcement an attempt to convince other people to leave with you and don’t make your announcement and think it's it's going to be the thing that everyone else has been missing. like, this information is public, it's available if people want to change their mind, they’re going to do so on their own time. and people believe and people stay for a variety of reasons. and I think that when you're making your evolution known, the reason that you should do so is so that you can be yourself. and uh, that you want to stand on your own ground, in your own firm place, and not because you want other people to stand with you.
um, and these are the things i've seen. I would really love if, uh, people want to comment on our blog post and tell us the things that have worked for them. I haven't seen a really comprehensive list of things to do and not to do and I think that uh coming out in this way not to co-opt that phrase form anyone else is something that's going to become more and more common with more and more people feeling confused about how to make this work. and it is very scary, but once you’re on the other side I think all of us can attest to it that it's really really wonderful.
Kami: Awesome. And you know, uh uh, I almost said brooke, um, jenna, when you um, when we um post this and we post your podcast, why don’t we post your list on there too.
Jenna: I would love that, and I would love to keep building you know we can pull from the comments and just keep building the list up with different peoples' experiences.
Kami: Absolutely. Thank you. Those are good.
[outro music]