Intro music
Jenna: Hi welcome to Woman Evolving. This is Jenna and today I have my friend Nancy… and… t-t we’re going to be discussing sexuality… when you’re married… but not sexuality with our husbands… our… our views on our own sexual selves and how we ex..press that publicy and whether we can show our boobs in public (laughs) now that we’re married
(laughter in background)
So I brought Nancy on because we have a few things in common. Oh you probably want to introd… or just say hi (Nancy says Hi, laughs) yeah, this is Nancy. We both live in the San Francisco Bay area and we have two kids a boy and a girl. We are both very happily married. Anything else? That we have in common?
Nancy: Ooh we like to work out
Jenna: Oh yeah we like to work out I would say that we’re similar ages. Around 30 and that we’re both kind of going through this time where we’re trying to improve our bodies and I don’t know get to some sort of place. Yeah we both like to eat really good food. Nancy eats healthier than I do most of the time. She’s doing Whole 30 right now. How’s it going?
Nancy: It’s going well except I really wanted cake today. I really want chocolate. That’s what I miss the most. All the time.
Jenna: I really want cake all the time as well. (laughs) and, yeah, as I said, I wanted to talk to her about… being a mom and being married and having a husband. And I think this came up because Nancy was with me when I went out clubbing (laughs) I don’t know do the kids call it that. (laughter)
Nancy: But this wasn’t just any ole like plain ole clubbing experience. It was a very exciting experience.
Jenna: Yeah, this was my 29th birthday. Was that the first time? I think it was. We’ll go with that.
Nancy: Yeah. Well, that was the big thing.
Jenna: Yeah it was my 29th birthday and this was going to be the first time that I was drinking and going out to a club and I got a dress with a really low cut, you know, in the front…
Nancy: Cleavage
Jenna: Yeah and It was pretty short. It was white with sequence. Yeah, I don’t know, what else?
Nancy: It was hot and sexy.
Jenna: Yeah, it was. I did. I, and I felt that way.
Nancy: It was.. but it was… like, it wasn’t just like we went out dancing and drank. Like, we went and saw the show! The show with the wom,me,trans…gender? (laughter)
Jenna: (Still laughing) Whoops, okay. I uh don’t know the correct term so we…
Nancy: I think they were I think they were transgender and then there were other ones
Jenna: Yes
Nancy: It wasn’t all just one type of person
Jenna: Yes, it’s called what was it called?
Nancy: Asia SF.
Jenna: Oh yeah Asia SF! And I did a shot out of one of the waitresses uh breasts cleavage that was the first time I’ve ever done anything like that.
Nancy: I don’t know if I’ve ever done that.
Jenna: Yeah it was… and… I really… was very red faced afterward. I don’t know if I liked it. But
Nancy: It was fine, it was a new experience
Jenna: Yeah. Yes, I like having new experiences. And then we went to Britney night. Big disappointment because they hardly played any Britney.
Nancy: And we took hot pictures, you took hot pictures of us.
Jenna: Oh yes, I did. I do like to take pictures. So I set up a big umbrella and we took sexy.. sexy pictures of everybody…. In their sexy outfits.
Nancy: It was a very memorable night
Jenna: And we called it, what? Crazy Sexy Asia SF (http://www.yelp.com/biz/asiasf-san-francisco)
Nancy: Crazy Sexy
Jenna: Yeah Yeah. Crazy Sexy
Nancy: We like themes.
Jenna: Yes we do. Before I went out on that night, because this was a first for me, I sat down with my husband, and asked him, so, before this, I had only done dirty (laughs) grind dancing (laughs)
Nancy: (laughs) oh yeah
Jenna: (still laughing) I don’t know what the kids call it
Nancy: Grinding!
Jenna: Yeah, uh, one time when I was sixteen and I went to, I swear it was an FFA (laughs loudly)
Nancy laughs
Jenna: (still laughing) sleepover
[unintelligible as they are both still laughing]
Jenna: I don’t know, I don’t know what this would have been but it was some kind of party and it was so advanced because they were projecting the music videos on the wall. I’m sure the quality was terrible by today’s standards. But it seemed very fancy to me. And this guy came up to me on the dance floor and he was grinding against me and I was rubbing against him too and that’s the only time I’ve ever done that before. (laughs)
Nancy: Aaaand that was it?
Jenna: And then I was like ‘Okay! I gotta go! See ya later’
[Nancy is talking in the background, difficult to make out – they both laugh]
Jenna: I was sixteen and it was so scary and I felt very-
Nancy: You were scared by the grinding?
Jenna: I felt. Yeah, I felt very guilty about it. I mean like in a religious context this was something I wasn’t supposed to do. I felt guilty about that for a long time. And then kinda just tried to forget about it. And then we went out for Crazy Sexy night. And I didn’t know if I was gonna be grinding on all the guys. Or something.
Nancy: So you asked your husband?
Jenna: Yeah, I asked him. Like, what am I allowed to do? And I think he just, was kinda like, just go-
Nancy: Because he trusts you
Jenna: -out. Did you ever have a conversation like this with your husband?
Nancy: I have never had that conversation (jenna laughs) with my husband
(jenna still laughing)
Nancy: Never because… it just… I’ve never felt like I needed to clarify anything and I didn’t need to explain myself because of what I’m doing is bad. I need somebody to tell me when it’s good and what isn’t. Like, in as in married woman. And so I think if I, I don’t know, I don’t know how Eric would react if I said, ‘hey I kissed a guy’.
Jenna: I haven’t, by the way. I don’t know that it matters… but… (laughs) But, yeah, so I didn’t kiss anyone actually, I actually didn’t like the club experience as Nancy knows. I just, I felt like this piece of meat, and… The one thing I did like was when we went to, it was in San Jose, that was the night when I had way too much to drink. I’ve been learning a lot of lessons. Been learning a lot of good lessons as I go out. Tina (?) was very helpful in that she came out and sat with me on the sidewalk as I recovered.
Nancy: I think that was the last time we went out.
Jenna: I.. the part I liked the best was afterward when we stood out on the sidewalk and talked to those guys… that was actually my favorite part. So I, if there was a club where you could go and dress sexy and just have conversations, that’s probably just a cocktail bar.
So I’m curious if you feel like, if you went to a club you were dancing and maybe you felt like… it… it… went a little far… Do you feel like you would come home that night and tell your spouse like ‘Yeah I had kind of a weird experience at the club tonight and this guy kissed me and I just felt like I should tell you about it.’
Nancy: I do
Jenna: Oh you do?
Nancy: No, I do. I have gone out and had kind of weird, like, guys hit on me and I just was like, uh, uncomfortable about it and I always come home and I tell him. And I usually, like, if I go, if we go out, you know out for the night, and then I come home and he is like half a sleep waiting for me, and then I kind of retell my evening and say “This happened and This happened!” Because that just happened a few weeks ago. (laughs) And he just kind of like listens and ‘oh okay’ makes comments and doesn’t get mad in any way. I think he, sometimes, laughs at the things I say. (laughs)
Jenna: Has he ever said ‘oh well, I’d like you to do this differently next time’?
Nancy: No.
Jenna: If he said that, what would you do?
Nancy: It depends, how drunk I was.
(laughter)
Nancy: If I was a little drunk like, if I was really alert maybe I’d be offended , um, because sometimes I get offended by him telling me to do things a certain way. Because I think my way is always the right way. Um, and and and so, it just depends. Yeah. If I was like just having a good time, and recounting, and I was maybe a little drunk, yeah, and be like “hahahaha’ (laughs) So I don’t know, that’s never… that’s never happened. Have you had… what do you do when you come home? Do you tell?
Jenna: He’s usually sleeping. He’s like (laughs)
Nancy: Yeah but he’s like… you don’t even tell..
Jenna: I don’t think we’ve ever recounted. I feel like for him, that’s, this separate life. You know, like.
Nancy: You mean he doesn’t care?
Jenna: Yeah, I don’t think he cares. I I I think after that first time when I came out and I was like ‘oh this guy was kinda dancing on me and it felt gross because it felt like he only valued me for the way I look’ (laughs) that’s that’s when my husband was thinking ‘okay this is great I don’t have to worry about her’
Nancy: Because you have trust and –
Jenna: Yeah yeah trust in both myself and him and I feel like I’m a professional person that can look at all the angles, I don’t know. I guess when you add in alcohol then it gets a little bit confusing but I’ve never been in a situation where I felt like it was that confusing for me like never at a point where the next day after I felt like where I hadn’t made any decisions that weren’t madee.
Nancy: You know, when Eric has been out with me, where we’ve had a lot to drink and I end up dancing with other guys, and he doesn’t care.
Jenna: With him there?
Nancy: Yeah. Oh yeah, quite a few times and he-
Jenna: That’s fascinating.
Nancy: uh, we have, a very trusting relationship
Jenna: But like this kind of dancing where you’re holding your arm out-
Nancy: Noooo no no no no no like-
Jenna: Sexy dancing
Nancy: Yeah, the kind of dancing with you
Jenna: But not the sixteen year old grind dancing I was doing
Nancy: No
(laughter)
Nancy: No, just dancing. I remember one particular time that we went salsa dancing. And he’s not a salsa dancer. Not even close. He’s not really a dancer. (laughs) So I think maybe that’s why he doesn’t mind me going out because he knows I love to dance and he’s not… he likes… he has fun but he isn’t any good at dancing. Um, and so, he just wants me to go out and get that out of my system.
Jenna: Yeah, I like that because it sounds like you have this part of yourself it’s these desires or needs that need to be met and he sees ‘okay well I’m not going to do that for her and so I’m gonna let this’ I feel like that’s what ‘s happening with us. As well. That I have this side of myself and it’s very extraverted and loud and that’s not what he wants to do with me. So he’s fine with me just kind of getting that out of my system. And I will say that with two kids and getting older we do one of those nights, and then I feel like I need a month to recover. (laughs) At least.
(laughter)
Jenna: So it’s not like they happen very often anyway
Nancy: Well once a month is really just the right amount. Yeah, I think so too.
Jenna: When we were first married we were Mormon. We were believers. We were very devout. And my husband would ask me not to wear certain things to church. And now, also, maybe he would have asked me not to wear certain things if, oh, I think he did ask me to… (sighs). Ask, feels kind of forceful or just kind of urge or something. Yes, suggest, that I wear swimsuits that had more coverage and he suggested that I not wear red shoes to church because he felt they were too loud. Too bright red. He feels that I had… (sighs) And so now we’ve gone through this transition where I put something on and I think he kind of accepts that at this stage of my life I just need to try wearing all kinds of things just to kind of test, like, ‘oh! Does this look good on me? How does this feel? Do I like showing my boobs this much? Do I like having this so short?’ And I’m curi- so far he’s never said… anything… like ‘Oh!’
Nancy: He’s a good guy.
Jenna: ‘Maybe that’s, I don’t know, maybe that’s showing too much.’ Do you think that a husband should tell his wife that? Or…
Nancy: Yes and no. I think he should because he’s your husband (laughs). And like he has the right to be honest with you. He has a right to be jealous. I think a little jealousy is good in a relationship. Because if he didn’t care at all, I don’t know, for me at least if Eric was like ‘wear whatever you want, you can wear a G string and go out in the street and I don’t care, everybody gets to see your privates’ then I’d feel like ‘oh, he doesn’t care, so it’s just it’s just there’s like a fine line between just the right amount of jealousy in the relationship. At least for me. That’s my opinion. I think it’s okay for him to suggest that but also if you feel like he’s limiting you too much then, well, that doesn’t seem right.
Jenna: No. I don’t know how you would navigate that. So far I haven’t encountered any sort of boundary where he has said ‘okay maybe this is too far’ but I think that’s because I’ve tried wearing really tiny stuff for a night out at the club and I wore my first bikini top in Hawaii and all those are times where you’re dressing to fit kind of the standard or the norm. but if I wanted to wear a night club dress to his work party that might be a time where he would say ‘okay let’s talk about appropriate boundaries’.
Nancy: I mean it’s kind of like giving, it’s kind of like giving your opinion on what you like about what he’s wearing. Like if he was wearing a shirt you didn’t like, you’d be like, ‘I don’t like that shirt and can you can you try on something else because I don’t know we’re going to meet my friends and I don’t want them to have this impression of you.”
Jenna: We were going out for this really nice dinner after Christmas and he wears business casual for work every day so for him he wants to be dressing down and I was dressing up and so he came out in his jeans, this outfit, and I asked him ‘can you please wear your sports jacket? Just be a little dressier?’ And I feel like maybe that’s that’s within the boundaries so maybe if you’re going someplace more together then that’s a good time to comment back and forth on each other’s outfits.
Nancy: I have got, when I do go out, and I put on my clothes and then Eric will comment say like, ‘oooh you look really hot’ or ‘ooh I like what you’re wearing’ Um, and that makes me feel good. He never says like ‘oh you shouldn’t’’ He’ll he’ll kind of joke around and say like ‘oh maybe I shouldn’t let you go out tonight’ kind of thing. Uh
Jenna: But you know he’s joking
Nancy: Yeah, I know he’s joking, Yeah again I think that comes back to the trust thing. Like he, trusts me enough that I’m not going to do anything but I’m also no the kind of person who’s going to wear really slutty clothes.
Jenna: Nope, haven’t seen that.
Nancy: Yeah. So. Maybe that’s why. What I’m wearing is not slutty enough. (laughs)
Jenna: (laughs) We should test the boundaries more. Like a game. How far can you take it and get away with it?
Nancy: Have I worn anything that Eric would say is not okay for you to wear
Jenna: Maybe the root for me in all of this is I’m so I’m coming out of this situation where I was really told how to dress and how to be. I feel in some ways like I was denied some experiences and some things in my early 20’s before I had kids, before my body went through the birth process, and all of these things. I feel like I am both trying to make up for lost time and also maybe like going through some strange mourning process. I (laughs)
Nancy: I think you have a right to do that. Because I did that. And I didn’t even do it while I was in my undergrad. I didn’t. We… like housing, I never really drank. I didn’t drink until I was 21. I think I had some at family functions. But I never got drunk. I was a good girl. And I dated the same guy all through college. Almost the whole the whole time. But towards the end of that I wasn’t invested in that relationship, I was really trying to break up with him for like a year and a half. (laughter) Um, and, it was really hard. But then when I moved away, then I went to get my credentials at another school, and I lived alone. And it was just really overwhelming, for not just myself, but it was 25 people in my cohort, my group, and we were all just tired, exhausted, um, and we really bonded a lot, and (laughs) bonding comes, (laughs), and bonding goes along with drinking and so we drank a lot, and I during that time, this is really when I explored more of. …went crazy. I like to say I went crazy! You know, so I think you’re allowed to have that. Like you
Jenna: I like that idea, exploring, that is what it feels like for me-
Nancy: Dating a lot of guys. Having sex with a lot of guys.
Jenna: Things I did not do.
Nancy: Yeah, you can’t do that. But I did, I had that, chance to do that. Which you were not and you’re not going to do that now so you get to explore in a different way. Push your boundaries just enough to feel like ‘ooh! This is! This is crazy!’
(laughter)
Jenna: I don’t, I don’t want to feel like a mom of two all the time. I want to feel like a woman. (laughs). It feels so cheesy to say, I can’t find a nice way to describe that, that’s not cheesy.
Nancy: No, I think that’s natural. But I also want to say that I hate this kind of stereotype that there is associated with moms that like Moms wear yoga pants every day, have a messy bun, you wear dirty sloppy t-shirts every day, don’t leave the house (laughs) and I am not one of th- and you are not one of those moms. Why do we have? Why? And I think some women almost kinda feel like ‘yes I am that person’ and I’m kind of owning it and that’s cool but I don’t want to be one of those moms.
Jenna: For me, it comes back to, so I wrote a blog post after cutting my hair, in saying, it was hard for me to embrace this hair cut because I had associated my long hair with my youth and it made me realize that I wanted to feel and look young because I want to feel like I’m still desirable to the greater community of men. It’s not enough for me to just. Like, what if my husband dies? I want to have this, just this feeling somewhere in my brain of, like, if he dies, I don’t have to spend the rest of my life alone. Because I’m an attractive person. I’ve, I I don’t know for me, it kind of comes down to not only this exploring but I just wanna fe- I want to have that assurance that I’m still on the… I’m not on the market but I could be on the market. (laughter) and it wouldn’t be so horrible. I I don’t know. I feel like that’s maybe what it’s it’s getting at for me. And and I definitely think that I was raised in a paradigm that I got a lot of my self-esteem from trying to understand how men felt about me. Like, I went from being a teenage girl, being told that I shouldn’t do or be anything with guys, like just be friends with them, and then all of a sudden, I was twenty and I needed to get married, and I needed to be very sexually desirable without having any sex, and that I wasn’t going to be the top tier wall street lawyer, but my husband was so I needed to get the best husband possible. And then I get married and all a sudden, like all of that is supposed to go away, and I’m not supposed to care what anybody else thinks of me except this one guy. (laughter) That is just not working for me. (laughs) So I was really happy when we started to have these conversations and I realized that I wasn’t alone and there was another mother of two out there who wants to
Nancy: We’re not alone
Jenna: No, I don’t think we are. Like, I think other people listen to this and they’ll say ‘yeah, I want to get all dressed up and look really good and walk down the street.’
Nancy: And not apologize for it
Jenna: Yeah yeah. And know that like some guy did a double take. And nothing else happened. Like, it just made me feel good. And not because I’m basing my selfesteem on what men think about me, which I think is problematic, but just having the knowledge that like ‘I still got it.’ I just want to know that. And just saying that in my own head isn’t enough.
Nancy: Part of my feelings about it are similar to yours. Part of mine are also my own desire to be attractive. I want to be (laughs) I told Eric this. I said, “I want to be a MILF”. Like, I just want to be the best I can be. Why do I have to stop just because I’m married and I have kids? Like, I want my husband to think I’m really hot.
Jenna: But I think where it becomes maybe controversial for other people is if you say I want to be super sexy and not just for my husband. Like, I want to be… it’s about being sexy for myself, and knowing that other people see that and recognize that, and..
Nancy: Because it makes you feel good. Who doesn’t like to be told that they look good? Or that they’re good at something.
Jenna: And I mean I that it’s problematic like your looks fade and you know maybe you, like get burned, or something, and then it’s very hard, you shouldn’t make your looks define your worth. So that’s hard. I think that’s a hard line to walk. But I do like having a friend like you. Who will get really dressed up and go out and just play. And it’s.. and there’s no judgment. Like I feel like I can do whatever I want at the club, which is really just plugging my ears, and complaining about how loud it is, and you’re not gonna judge me for it.
Nancy: It also comes out of having a really good relationship. Like a really good friendship. I was telling Eric that means something too. I was saying ‘I really love this type of friendship that I have with Jenna and our small group of friends who can go out and do that, party together, get drunk together, and just just for fun. And then it’s just, we just, that’s just what we get out of it. We just have fun. And it’s good to be married.
Jenna: It is. And I feel the same way. I feel like we’re partners trying to figure out all this stuff together. And mostly I trying new things.
Nancy: Being supportive
Jenna: And he just listens to my stories and laughs at me (laughs). Laughs with me (laughs). And then enjoys it. And maybe I’ll tell him that for my 30th birthday clubbing experience. Gonna need some earmuffs. It’s really bad. I really need to get some earplugs.
[outro music and the girls talking]