Episode 28 - Willful Blindness
Woman Evolving
Cami: Hi! Welcome back to Woman Evolving. This is Cami. We have Crystal and Jenna - Oh sorry, Crystal Scott. [laughs] Identify which Crystal. Crystal Scott and Jenna Andersen. And we're going to be talking about, well let's say Crystal's going to be discussing… let me just start that whole crap over again my gosh… [laughs] Awful [laughs] okay here we go
[Intro Music]
Cami: Hi welcome back to Woman Evolving. This is Cami and… we are having a discussion today with Crystal Scott and Jenna Andersen on willful blindness. And Crystal Scott's going to lead us in this discussion. How are you doing Crystal?
Crystal: I'm doing great, thank you. How are you?
Cami: I'm doing really good actually.
Crystal: Excellent
Cami: Just chilling out. Jenna how are you doing?
Jenna: I am ready to… do some self-examination while I listen to Crystal and see if there are some some ways I'm still being willfully blind.
Cami: Ooh I like that. You're more self- self-aware today than I am. [they both laugh] [Jenna: We'll see] Okay we'll see. Yeah. So Crystal tell us about this subject and why you why you wanted to discuss it.
Crystal: Okay, I'm I'm so glad we're discussing this. I will tell you I started learning about this about a year and a half ago. I used to watch TED Talks in my lab while I was waiting for things to, like, do their thing. And I had time to just sit and wait. So one day I posted a Facebook post and I said, "What is your favorite TED Talk?" and I got lots of um ideas and I watched every single one of them. Um, two of them really stood out to me. One was on the power of vulnerability with Brene Brown. And the other one was by Margaret Heffernan and it was on willful blindness. Um, it was the same exact time that I decided I was leaving my faith. So… um, a lot of the things that were said in this talk just, like, really struck me to the core. So, that's why I'm talking about it today.
Cami: Now this is a book, um, who's the author on it?
Crystal: Same person, Margaret Heffernan
Cami: Heffernan, okay, so we'll put up a link to that. I just was at a friend's house this weekend and walked by and saw, and I didn't realize when you put down what you wanted to talk about, I didn't realize it was a book. And I walked by and there was the book sitting there, Willful Blindness. I'm like "holy crap! How did- oh!" I got it, I put it together.
Crystal: Yeah, she's really good too. Very powerful speaker. Gives amazing examples. Really makes you like… turn introspectively and say "wow, what am I… what am I doing with this situation here?"
Cami: So maybe we can put up some links to her TED Talks as well.
Crystal: Oh, it's fantastic. We should do that for sure.
Cami: It's hard to let go of our allusions, isn't it though? [they all laugh] [Crystal: It is] No seriously! [Crystal: So] It's like the only way to survive sometimes [laughs] Okay, so go ahead crystal.
Crystal: Yeah. So, the the book, um, is great, you should all read it. It starts off with a quote by T.S. Eliot. It says, "Go go go said the bird: humankind Cannot bear very much reality" and then you start reading the book and it's all these examples. But one of the things, um, that really struck me, when she's talking about what is this idea of willful blindness.
Um, she says:
"It's something we all do even when we have grown up. The problem arises when we use the same mechanism to deny uncomfortable truths that cry out for acknowledgement, debate, action, and change. Many, perhaps even most, of the greatest crimes have been committed not in the dark, hidden where no one can see them, but in full view of so many people who simply chose not to look and not to question. Whether in the Catholic Church, the SEC, Nazi Germany, Madoff's funds, the embers of BP's refinery, the military in Iraq, or the dog-eat-dog world of sub-prime mortgage lenders, and the central challenge posed by each. In each case it was not harm that was invisible - but harm to so many who preferred to ignore the truth."
So one of the things about the TED Talk that really struck me is this community in Montana. And this is how the TED Talk starts. But basically there was a community who had an 80% higher mortality rate than the rest of the country. And it turns out that they had vermiculite in their soil. And, um, so, this woman came down, she was investigating mortality and she was like 'I think there's something, like, wrong with the ecology of this… of this village.' And people were dying of cancer and and super sick. And there were, everybody. And if they were sick, if they were well, everybody just wanted to turn a blind eye to it. And, um, so there's this idea of, like, just just just deciding that you don't want to face the truth.
So.. um… this really impacted me.
Cami: What happened in that community?
Crystal: Well initially… the, um, EPA came in and they covered all the playgrounds where these kids were, you know, playing in the soil and getting it in their face and eyes and breathing it in. So they covered up a lot of the area. And it was, um, environmentally ? but it was after lots and lots of struggle and and people having to be convinced that yes this is a real thing, you should be very concerned.
Cami: Wow. Okay. So so what does she describe? Like, why why, just like in this instance, why did people not want to know?
Crystal: Um, so, um, a lot of it is because it's harder to deal with the truth and to recognize that someone might know something that hurts you and still will do it, not knowingly. Another idea that she, um, addresses, is that it's kind of like the golden rule. Maybe if you turn your eye and don't speak out about this subject that may or may not be painful, then karma will turn around and do something nice for you. Because you you chose not to, you know, cause problems for another person or entity.
The reason why I thought this was especially something interesting to talk about, um, is because this week, uh, the a lot of the National, um, news organizations picked up the story about Joseph Smith's polygamy.
Cami: Yeah, yeah, we're… let me just tell the audience. We're recording this, uh, the week of November 16th, even though this isn't going to be released until January. So… I just wanted to date that for a second. Okay, go ahead Crystal.
Crystal: So the reason why I thought this was especially important this week is because news organizations were picking this up and it was being covered by NY Times, CNN, all sorts of, um, places. It was especially powerful of a story in, um, places like Europe. The Guardian had a fantastic article with lots of amazing comments with it. And what was really striking to me is that a lot of people who I knew that were, um, active believing members of the church just chose to completely dismiss it. Saying this is old news, we don't need to talk about this anymore. And completely, uh, act as though it didn't matter. And, as if it were something that was commonly known and taught and discussed, um, in the religion.
I think it was, uh, through an interview I read about one of the writers of Mormon Enigma, and, um, she was counseled that she could never speak about that book. I think it was Beline (?), um, um she was counseled that she could never speak about her book in sacrament meetings and… Not because the information was inaccurate but because it painted the prophet Joseph Smith in a negative light. And she was told it was by one of the Twelve Apostles that if his standing as prophet seer and revelater was, uh, diminished in any of the member's eyes, then it was viewed as dangerous material.
So, it's kind of that same same sort of alignment. If you start, if you start, um, feeling bad about the person who restored the gospel, um, it's dangerous information to a lot of people. And so rather than talk about it and discuss it and recognize it, people are much more willing to just dismiss it and like, not even allow it to penetrate at all into their brain.
Cami: I think that's a key element, uh, dangerous. And maybe we do that to ourselves on a lot of different levels. Because we see it as fundamentally more dangerous to accept it. Why do you think we would do that, in any context? Why do you think we would look at it as more dangerous to accept reality, um. What are your thoughts on that?
Crystal: Well I feel like for a lot of people, they've invested so much. So whether it's a bad relationship. Or um, um, a major, like in college that doesn't, you know it's not going to be what you thought it was but you've already invested three years. Or a religious organization where you served a mission and you married in the Temple and you had, you know, several kids by the time you're 30, then…
It becomes becomes like horrifying to think you wasted all this time and effort and money and energy, um, to just walk away from it. And, so, rather than face up to that, a lot of people are just willing to live in a way that that is not completely authentic.
Cami: It's kinda like in, in in any aspect, we see ourselves as progressing within a certain paradigm. And if all of a sudden that paradigm is proven to be false or based upon falsehood, uh, we have to start over and we don't see ourselves as progressing.
Crystal: Right. So one of the conversations I've had with a lot of people who, um, wanted to be involved with me as soon as I they found out I was leaving the Church. So, like, missionaries, and people who knew me when I first joined and and thought that I was going to be a life-long Mormon. And one of the things that they would often do, um, would be like listen to me but then say something like, 'Well the people who are leaders in the Church are very smart men. They have, you know, PHDs. They have MDs. They have law degrees. So if these smart men can believe in the Church, and they have these amazingly successful lives, then it must be true.'
So you also use, like, completely unrelated information to justify why you can still believe in this. And why you can still dedicate your life to it. Because you can justify some other aspect of their lives and outside influence that seems appealing to you.
Jenna: As you guys are talking, uh, I'm reflecting on a personal experience I had with my son. Where we were told that he should be referred for a speech therapy evaluation. This was a really hard thing for me. And I had to… I had to actively choose to accept that whatever came out of this speech therapy evaluation was the reality of the situation. And that not doing the evaluation wasn't going to change, like, who my son is and and his strengths and weaknesses. So I could either know… the reality or I could ignore it. And harm him if in fact he was going to have these life-long speech delays.
And that was a really pivotal experience in my life that was also happening… [laughs] it's funny how these… that was also happening as I was leaving the LDS Faith. And I had to be very very willful about my desire to know the truth and accept it as truth.
Crystal: Yeah, I've actually had that exact same experience with the exact same issue, Jenna. And you're right, you have to be, like, okay, I can pretend like this is actually not and issue and just life is normal and do my best to cope with things. Or I can say, yeah, maybe there is an issue with him. Maybe I need to go for further evaluation. It doesn’t' change anything. It doesn’t change anything at all. The only thing that it does, is it allows me to be able to provide help for my child. It is very appealing to just bury your head in the sand sometimes because it's familiar.
Jenna: Yeah! Fear of the unknown, [laughs], I think is is one of the root causes of willful blindness. That we want to stay in the in the places that are familiar to us. Because we've already explored that. So we know it's a good place to be.
Crystal: Right, so even though it might be uncomfortable and things don’t quite make sense, you know what to expect.
Cami: It's easier to to deal with the devil you know… [Jenna laughs] [Crystal: Absolutely] It's true! It's very true.
Crystal: Right and you know. Often times with, especially with spiritual and religious things there are all these threats. Like, what if I leave and I become this horrible awful person. And maybe I'm just not praying enough or being faithful enough or being accepting enough. Or you know, being kind enough. Maybe this is actually just me. There are those mind tricks that are played as well.
Cami: Yeah, it's interesting. I have a friend who is really active in her religion and her husband is an atheist, nobody in the church knows that about him but she confided that to me. He's just the best man. He even plays the organ for the church in in the opening meetings and stuff. And just a great person and she told me she goes, 'I just no matter what I don't ever want to let go of my faith because I think I would just turn to the darkside and become this horrible person.' And she goes, 'I think that's why it's here in this world for us.' And I said, 'But isn't your husband a living example that's not true?' [laughs]
Jenna: She knows you Cami. I mean like, I don't know how I'm supposed to take that. So, now I'm a bad person… I have a hard time with those statements.
Cami: Well, I think it's a a reflection of the perception of that person's self-perception. So, that, I think things that were mentioned in the very beginning of your quote of this book, Crystal. Like, she mentioned the Nazis. She mentioned religion. Uh, fundamentally those things put a serious doubt upon your own judgement and upon your own, um, ideas. So that you are relying upon another source for those. And so therefore, you get you willfully give that up. Does that make sense?
Crystal: It does and I think that's what's so ironic is a lot of these religions and spiritual practices, um, a lot of a lot of the times they're saying, 'Well we're just letting you make your own decisions and we're embracing your individual ability to make things work for you.' But in reality, they're very much prescribing their roles they think you should follow. And they're telling you what you should read, and what you should watch, and what you should do. And, when you fall out of that, then then it becomes kind of a problem for you.
Cami: Well and it's always followed up with 'You have your free agency, you can choose Evil.' [laughs]
Crystal: Right. You can choose Evil, we're telling you exactly what you need to do.
Cami: 'Which is which is anything that we don’t prescribe.'
Crystal: That's right. So this idea, um, I've seen it a lot and I think, um, I've seen it a lot on Facebook this week is when people try to engage, like people who are questioning or who left the Church, or who are just wanting to have some sort of articular discussion about a lot of these hard issues, but particularly polygamy… They are automatically shut down within one minute. 'Oh we've heard this all before. Oh this is old news.' And I just, I, really struggle with a person who is so able to just turn off their thought process. I just don't understand it. It's never been something I've been able to do. I just don't get it.
Jenna: That's such a nice segue into the question I've been holding onto which is, uh, How do you engage with people in your life who… you feel are being willfully blind - just as I'm sure many people are thinking I'm being willfully blind in certain areas - I mean, is, can we influence the people in our lives that are close to us? Or do we just have to accept that… that's how they are and we might need to set up boundaries, um, with… because of the the choices they're making? I mean like we all do this with each other.
Crystal: I think I was a lot more, um, ready to talk about things and in a way that was insulting to people when I first left. I'm not like that anymore. So, if someone says something I don't agree with like, 'Oh, I don't know, what a tender mercy I found my keys.' I'm just like, 'Oh so you found your keys… [garbled] girls in the condo are being kidnapped' (???) [Jenna and Cami laugh] I want to say something like that. [Jenna and Cami continue laughing]
Jenna: [still laughing] I do feel like I have to insert a lot of effort to just accept that my world view is not the best, which is sad because I think my world view is very amazing. [laughs] The the and the world would be awesome if only everyone was like me. But, you know, we all feel that way because we're all doing the best we can.
Crystal: Jenna, to kinda follow that up. I think that one of the things I try to remember, is do I actually value this relationship? And 99.9% of the time it's Yes. So I don’t want to, like, go to battle with someone I care about. So I just kinda, don't say a whole lot anymore. To be honest with you. I mean, unless it's like accusatory, and then of course I will meet those accusations and give them plenty of evidence for why I have chosen to believe what I chose.
Jenna: I try to engage in one area and that's when… I feel like I'm coming up against beliefs that are hurtful toward other people. And this this would be maybe racism, sexism. It's a, oh man I don't know that I'm doing very well at it, but I do notice that because I'm vocal about things… I have friends and family who won't say certain things in front of me.
And it's a small step but it at least feels like they're acknowledging, this is a place to tread lightly. And maybe that will expand over time. Or maybe no. But at least it's helped the relationship. And I can feel like in some small way I've done my part [laughs] [they talk over each other a little bit]
Crystal: And I 100% think that that's a fantastic wonderful thing. I really do. And and it's nice when you have people like that, who are present for you. So…
Cami: I think that’s a great idea when somebody is, uh, per-, uh, perpetuating a thought that creates violence and violent actions or thoughts toward other people. I, uh, for any reason I think that's, it's actually a responsibility for us to say something, I mean. You know. Um, And that's not welcome.
But, you know, sometimes I think… [sighs] I just.. I've been so willfully blind to so many different things throughout my life and for whatever reasons, and I'm sure I still am. I think I try to think, okay, so I probably still am to certain things. And… I am… I'm not the expert. I don't know and I think all my self-discovery and understanding has lead to the fact that I don't know. I think, Jenna, for me that makes it easier for me not to confront an ideological or political difference, you know, in somebody's thinking.
Crystal: Yeah and I think, I agree with you. I think if confrontation needs to take place, it needs to be, like, really something that matters. That will actually matter to someone. You know, like in terms of safety or 'you shouldn't use that word' and 'that's actually quite offensive'. And that sort of thing.
Cami: So, Crystal, um, I'm curious because I haven't read this book and now I'm super eager to. Um, what does she talk about with [sighs]… I'll tell you my fear in even discussing this okay? When you first put that up, 'willful blindness,' I was like 'oh crap', because I've been blind to so many things that kept me intact in my life. The certain paradigms I held onto to keep myself in tact during different phases of my life and… And when I saw that I'm like, "oh my gosh, I don't want to have to get rid of one more thing that [laughs] that helps me to function every day." Do you know-- it was funny, that was my first reaction. It was this emotional, "oh my gosh, if I have to let go of one more thing that keeps me mentally stable I'm going to lose it [laughs] [they all start talking] And I'm serious, I'm not kidding. [Talking in background] I'm serious. And I I know that there must be something that I'm holding on to that I know I'm being willfully blind to, but I don't even want to see it right now because I'm barely functioning as. So… tell me about that.
Crystal: Yeah so, her take on this is it's typically not something that's that's malicious at all. It's it's really a self-protective, uh, mechanism that we all have. Um, I certainly have absolutely been very aware of very aware that I too am quite willfully blind in many aspects of my life. Um, and it it helps me to function. And, yeah. I I I'm aware of it. Um… So it's normally not a malicious thing. Um, what she does say is that typically people who are what we call 'whistleblowers' are horribly and terribly, um, conflicted on a moral deeply moral and ethical, um, situation.
But it typically is going to be a very small percentage of people who are willing to speak out because of this idea of self-preservation and being able to make, being able to deal with themselves… on a day daily basis that is in a healthy way. Though it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's not necessarily a, um, destructive thing. It's just being able to live with yourself and your moral compass. So, Cami, I think that there are a lot of things that… it's okay to kind of not deal with right now. Um, and I think most of the things that are big things end up being dealt with in most people's lives. So. In one way or another.
Cami: That feels a little better. I think we just have to take it one step at a time. And… and the segment that we did on coulda shoulda woulda's with, uh, Jenna, you know I was thinking so much about how… how to have mercy on yourself and how to give yourself grace…. Grace to make mistakes. Um, which is hard, I mean, it's [sighs]… does she mention things to be aware that go, 'oh I think I'm being willfully blind in this situation', such as like if you're in a, a, relationship with somebody and you start getting red flags or, you know, different things that you might start sensing… Is it just listening to your inner gut? Your instincts?
Crystal: So she does talk about that a little bit but her main focus, something that's mentioned a lot is, paying attention to the people who really care about you. Because if they're telling you, like, if there's a situation in your life that is dangerous, they're probably going to be vocal about it. So pay close attention to the people who care about you. Um, absolutely pay close attention to yourself. If you if you feel like something is awful in your life, that is something that's consistent. Um, but she… I mean honestly, I feel like she's, um, non-judgmental, for the most part, about individual situations. She gives a lot of, like, big scenarios having to do with corporations and companies and that sorts of thing. But. She's typically pretty easy on people, like, in their personal lives.
Cami: Okay. Yeah, I I feel very strongly about listening to your instincts. And, um, I did a pocast with, uh, a couple of specialists - one is Chelsea Strayer and then my brother-in-law who works with Special Victims Unit, and we did one on the book The Gift of Fear. About how he talks very specifically, especially to women, on listening to that inner, that inner red flag that feeling like, 'I don't understand why I feel this way but something's off.' Um, I think that's what led me to start listening to myself over the faith I was in. Because I kept getting those, those signals, and I kept ignoring them. But it it wouldn’t go away. When I finally started investigating, and sure enough, the source of information was corrupt. And it was toxic and it was deceitful. I realized that I needed to listen to myself above everything else. Because I was getting the right instincts.
Crystal: Yeah, I think that, yeah, we know ourselves well. And it it can be pretty profound. Like those feelings that we have for sure.
Cami: Any other, uh, thoughts on this before we wrap it up?
Crystal: I think it's important to be true to yourself and live authentically. And that can come in various packages that are going to be completely different from person to person. But at the end of the day, living authentically and using an evidence-based approach I think is has been most healthy for me.
Cami: That's beautiful Crystal. And don’t you think, authentically, I think some people feel like they either have to be quiet or they're going to go to extremes and say the rudest things out loud because it's authentic [laughs]. And I think authentically is not so much how you're living outside of yourself as much in relationship to other people, as it is to not fooling yourself. To listen- Being authentic with yourself. I think you first and foremost have to be honest with yourself.
Crystal: Exactly yeah.
Cami: What about you, Jenna? What are your thoughts on that? As we're wrapping up.
Jenna: I want to be… kinder to people I think are being… willfully blind. I I just want to give everyone more space. Just like Crystal when she was saying to you Cami, allow yourself the space to work through… whatever you need to work through. You don't have to address everything all at once. I just, I want to be kinder and more accepting of other people's differing views. And this was a nice opportunity to think through how I can do that.
Crystal: Yeah, that's perfect.
[Outro Music]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Woman Evolving Podcast Transcripts:
Episode 1: Woman Evolving - http://jpst.it/vs71
Episode 7: We're Sexy and We're Married - http://justpaste.it/womanevolving_1202015
Episode 19: Failure vs Feedback - http://justpaste.it/jo8n
Episode 20: Coulda Shoulda Woulda - http://justpaste.it/womanevolving_03092015
Episode 21: Personal Evolution Crystal Miller - http://justpaste.it/womanevolving_03162015
Episode 22: Radio Interview with Cate Allen - http://justpaste.it/womanevolving_03172015