Abu Qatada Interview (part 1 transcript)
The following is the transcript of the first part of the interview Shaykh Abu Qatada had with Bilal Abdul Kareem.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: You where recently cleared of all charges by the Jordanian authorities in connection to a plot which was supposed to have taken place some years ago. Can you give us a little bit of background in terms of what that was about, what happened and what’s your position now?
Shaykh Abu Qatada: Alhamdullilah wa salatu wa salamu ala Rasoolillah,
In fact there where two charges and a considerable time passed between these two charges. If you ask me what those charges where I can honestly say I don’t know. I entered the courtroom and I left without there being any mention of my name! There were other defendants who were connected to me in the two cases with their charges and witnesses against them. But there was not a single witness that had anything to do with my case.
Therefore, I was not referred to in this court that was established for specifically this purpose. But there were no real references made to me or witnesses connected to me. So I can’t tell you the exact charges. However according to my knowledge there were two charges connected to terrorism.
So there was really nothing against me and I left a free man.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: much of this evidence they had or said they had against you was obtained through torture and I think this was part of the problem.
Abu Qatada : Much of my long imprisonment in Britain was a result of the deportation process. There had to be a discussion with the UK authorities about the issue of my welfare after my deportation. The one who negotiated the first agreement between the UK and Jordan did not mention the fact that there were two accusations against me if I return to Jordan. The whole issue was just about sending me back to Jordan, but it was made clear that I had charges against me, charges which I was convicted of.
The evidence that had been given to the Jordanian courts was a big part of my defense against my deportation. This is something that the concerned UK authorities have recognized. They recognized that the evidence that was used to gain my conviction was obtained through torture.
This was the foundation of the European court’s ruling forbidding my being handed over ot the Jordanians.
Then a new agreement was brought forward between Britain and Jordan to remedy the situation. It was this agreement that caused the ruling of my not being deported to be undone.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: Why do you think that the British authorities were so keen to put you in prison, why do you feel that that was their position?
Abu Qatada : Before I state my feelings, firstly why did they put me here? The reality is that people don’t know that my imprisonment which was more than ten years, was due to my deportation. Not including the time I was imprisoned under the terrorism law, a lar that is something unseen in human history, wherein parliament granted the government the right to imprison any foreigner they want for the remainder of his life.
This was done not by way of an open court system but by way of secret courts.
The foreigner has no right to see the evidence against him nor is he permitted to see his own lawyer as he is a secret lawyer! Amazing!
So I remained in Prison, why? Truthfully, I don’t know. The specific charge against me was never stated in court. So if it wasn’t mentioned in court, nor was it mentioned in official court papers, why would I know?
I could say maybe it was this or maybe it was that. Maybe even they dont know. It was never said in front of me.
Britain is like a tired and feeble old man. So they imprisoned me. To this day I’ve never seen the evidence they had against me in court. Can you imagine that?!
The authorities have secret rooms where they would sit and discuss with secret lawyers, that I have no clue who they are, the case of Abu Qatada. So I have no idea what they are judging.
That should give you an idea of how I feel.
How do I feel? How do I feel?
Britain is an ignorant country built on the skulls of others. As for Muslims, they make up laws against us in a matter of minutes.
The law that I and my brothers were imprisoned under in 2001 was made up by MPs within just sixteen minutes!
This was to give the UK government “validity” to imprison and hold any foreigner indefinitely using secret evidence.
I don’t think any human being would see this treatment as fair.
And people will call this corrupt government and it’s legal system what they will. It is a corrupt system that gives no importance to mankind. It is a racist state one hundred percent.
Britain is a racist state.
Abu Qatada interview (part 2 transcript)
Bilal Abdul Kareem: Everyone by now knows what took place last summer in that the group known as the ISIS or ISIL or tanzeem ad dawlah in Arabic, declared a khilafa, Now this khilafa means that they are now an Islamic state and that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is the leader of all of the muslims, Now do you see that this so called khilafa is valid?
Abu Qatada: You will not find a single Muslim who is serious about his faith and afterlife except that he knows he must work to re-establish the rule of Allah. It has been termed in political spheres as “Khilaafa”.
It’s a name which came from Abu Bakr (ra) who succeeded the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa salam) in leading the Muslim nation, that’s why he was called the khalifa of the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa salam).
The general meaning is the application of the law of Allah on both Muslims and non-Muslims; this is the belief of all Muslims. Therefore no one has the right to obstruct the establishment of the Islamic state. If this state is established then it is upon the Muslims to support it and give the oath of allegiance to its leader.
However this is not the topic of the question. The topic of the question is about that which is taking place in Iraq and Syria, is this the leadership upon which it is obligatory upon the Muslims to give the oath of allegiance to its leader? Is it obligatory upon them to fight alongside them and oppose those who oppose them? This is the real question.
I believe this has been explained before. This declaration has no right to be given the honourable name of the “Khalifa”, this is a false claim and incorrect call. This is my stances which I have mentioned in the book “The Cloak of Khilaafa”.
There are some issues which have become more apparent concerning this group. We love those who fight against the enemies of Islam, however this group, in Syria, fights against the mujahideen. They are usurping the name “Mujahid” but in reality they are not fighting in Syria from an Islamic standpoint, this is clear both from their actions and their statements.
They call for oath of allegiance from the Muslims yet they cause division, chaos and strife between Muslims in every country .They incite the common people against the scholars and actually to kill the scholars and to point the weapons at mujahideen .There is no benefit of jihad in Syria if it’s going to be carried out in this fashion. This group called “The state” does not represent Islam, not because they oppose the enemies of Allah, if that was the premise then it would obligatory on myself and every Muslim to support those fighting enemies of Allah.
We don’t oppose ISIS because they oppose the enemies of Allah, One might say: “Look! He prefers ISIS enemies against them.” This is a lie. History will bear witness and the true state of affairs will bear witness that we made no deal with non-Muslims against any Muslims. And if… and I would like to touch on an important point. Because and only because ISIS makes takfir on the Muslims and kills them do I and others have the right to speak against them, Even if it is an Islamic state. We’d say: “ what you’re doing is wrong. May Allah correct you. Check the path that you’re on regarding fighting for Allah’s sake” and we’d make supplication for them just like other mujahid. Let no one come and say that we stand with the enemies of Islam against ISIS because this is a lie!
We stand against ISIS because they are targeting the Muslims. This is our position. As for their fighting against the Iranian Shia in Iraq, apostates, and Alawites then this is a praiseworthy jihad. However generally speaking this is not what we see them doing, specifically in the Syrian territories, I want to make these points clear as the ignorant person may not have the ability to make sense of it or convey it. We don’t oppose ISIS because they oppose the enemies of Allah, we oppose them because they oppose sincere mujahideen, they made takfir on them , fought them, slaughtered them, enslaved their women and other things that are known to everyone.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: Now some people are saying that knowing who the people are who gave Abu Bakr Al Bagdadi the mandate to declare himself to be the Khalifa is not actually a condition for accepting him as the leader or accepting his leadership. What is the Islamic position concerning this declaration of people who no one actually knows who they are?
Abu Qatada: If we want to discuss the oath of allegiance to a Khalifa from an Islamic legal perspective then we will find that their oath is invalid. Here I want to officially say something most haven’t head from me except those closest to me, and they have heard it many times. I want to say it now in hopes that it would spread. They should have declared the caliphate on the methodology of Ahlus Sunnah, meaning that they shouldn’t have made takfir on the Muslims and shouldn’t have killed the Muslims and shouldn’t have called for the splitting of the ranks of the Mujahideen.
They should have said “we’ve raised the banner of khilafa for those who are willing then let them enter our ranks, for those that don’t then we will not force it upon you”
Because enjoining the khilaafa only happens under two circumstances: the first is by way of willing acceptance. If they are willing to accept it then they are part of it.
However whoever refuses it then it is only obligatory to accept it if it has been imposed by force. Anyway this way is not permissible. it’s not permissible for them to begin in this fashion.
However if power has been usurped through force by an oppressor and he is ruling only then do we accept it. Not in the beginning and not in the middle but only when his power grab is complete.
But they have corrupted this understanding.
They made takfir…. this takfir has no attachment to the religion. They are using takfir to take away the legitimacy from other groups. This is something in which they’re deceivers and ignorant. They use issues to make takfir on others that they’ve fallen into.
If others dealt with them using the same principals they use to judge then they themselves would be put out of the religion.
Therefore I say, if the caliphate was built upon that, and they say “We don’t make takfir, nor do we fight so the leadership is only for us, nor do we call to division of the Muslims, actually we call for unity”. Even then the issue of caliphate would be an open interpretation.
It is permissible to overlook some small innovations that don’t amount to one being outside of the ranks of Ahlus Sunnah.
If it’s an issue of difference of opinion. Like a group that splits from the rest we could say “You have done something wrong” But don’t make takfir and possibly enter area’s that take you out of Ahlus Sunnah. The split occurred but maybe it will be reconciled.
The tragedy is that they don’t only affect themselves but others as well. They made takfir on all the groups in Syria. They made takfir in general on these groups as if it’s a malicious game. They even made takfir on those doing good works!
Amazing. If these issues were minor then it wouldn’t be allowed to call them innovators or declare them out of Ahlus Sunnah.
But they are khawaarij, killers and criminals.
The catastrophe now after all that has taken place as a result of their actions we needn’t talk about a caliphate. I’m sorry for taking so mch time but I must say it. The current moment is not the time to be discussing a Caliphate. That which is worthy of discussing now is what will happen after the Caliphate.
This innovated, corrupt and lame caliphate is on its sharp decline.
Someone might say “You’re happy about what is happening in Iraq!”. To that I would say I am more distressed than them. I know the ramifications and the consequences that have started to appear in the killings of the Sunni women. You can hear it on the news, the killing of members on the scholars council, the imaams of the Masajid, the weak. Look what the Yazidis do the the people in the cities after Baghdadis group withdraws. There are huge tragedies.
Who is responsible? The criminal Baghdadi and his group.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: You are particularly concerned about the people of, the sunni Muslims in the areas controlled by ISIS. If this group (ISIS) should fall then your concern what will happen to the Sunni Muslims from what we have seen from some of the Shia death squads. You are concerned about that?
Abu Qatada: Without a doubt I am concerned and very afraid for Sunni Muslims in Iraq. This deviant group has given a free license to other factions to kill Sunni Muslims.
Now they are being pushed out of towns and villages and they surrender these places to the enemies of Sunni Muslims. So when these factions re take these places they come with extreme hatred. This hated is a result of what these ignorant ones have done.
The catastrophe I fear will happen in Syria is regarding the foreign fighters and their wives. It is upon the Mujahideen and the scholars to prepare themselves for how they will deal with the difficulties ahead after ISIS has fallen.
The thinking now has to be what will happen after the fall of ISIS. ISIS is on the sharp decline.
Even when ISIS was at the height of its power I said it was a bubble. Now that reality is apparent as it collapses from within.
Trusted sources from within have said many of those who went to ISIS full of enthusiasm looking for the image that was advertised to them were disappointed as the illusion has begun to fade.
The trials and tribulations have come to the point that many of them feel that they live in a police state. A few days ago they killed two persons who tried to flee.
There are groups of individuals who have left already but they fear publicizing it for a host of reasons. There are those thinking of ways to escape.
ISIS has begun to crack from within This is more dangerous to them than external threats.
ISIS has provoked the world in the most foolish way and gone about waging warfare impermissibly in fighting the Mujahideen. So the mujahideen are leaving them and resisting them. Thus the success from Allah is withheld from them as they will see.
Abu Qatada interview (part 3 transcript)
Bilal abdul Kareem: ISIS pretty much to maintain that, there are only two camps. Either you are in the Islamic State camp, meaning their camp or you are in the camp of the westerners in Obama and such like that. Is it limited only to just either them or you, us or them is it limited to that?
Sheikh Abu Qatadah: Since i was young I’ve been able to expose the falsehood of having two options. I learn this from my shaykh’s, books and other sources. Give a Muslim only two choices and he’ll find another choice. The proof is, for example: either you’re with Saddam (Hussein) or you’re with America. That’s what people in Jordan used to say. “Either you are with Saddam the Arab or you are with the aggressor America and Israel and other than them”.
Why do i have to be with this group of that group. I am with Islam. Where is Islam in this fight? There is none. I want to work for Islam. Someone says: “Either you’re with America or you’re with ISIS”. I’m with the Mujahideen that aren’t with ISIS or America. And these Mujahideen are bombed by the west. The western planes bombing the syrian territories are not bombing ISIS positions only. They’re bombing Ahrar asham, Jabha An Nusra, Ansarudeen… So why are you limiting me either being with this one or that one? This two choice only idea is rejected. This is a game that is played on kids.
It’s not for the Muslim to fall into this evil trap. I am with Islam. If there is a fight with no Islamic sake in it then what is my interest? I’m not with ISIS except for their jihad against the enemies of Islam, if they choose this path. I’m not with them in a fight against Muslims. As it stands now they don’t represent me or the hopes of the Muslims around the world, nor the Mujahideen in Syria or in Iraq. There is one situation that we don’t want to see is when ISIS falls and areas are re-taken, because we can already see what is happening to the Sunnis in those areas.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: ISIS has refused any mediation from anyone outside of their group to settle some differences which are between them and other factions, their reasoning for that is that they are the state and that they do not accept anyone to make a judgement over the state what is your opinion about this?
Sheikh Abu Qatadah: I never imagined that such a statement would come from a student of the religion. I heard this while in prison from Shaykh Abu Muhammad al Maqdisi who said: “ISIS refuses to accept arbitration because they’re a state. Saying ‘It isn’t permissible for a state to sit with small groups”. I said “Shaykh maybe you made a mistake”. Why? Because I cannot imagine that a student of knowledge would make such a foolish and ignorant statement. Because Allah says: “And if two groups from the believers dispute”. This statement of “two groups” is general in nature.
Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) regarding this verse from Surah Hujaarat said: “The companions didn’t implement this verse in the disputes between Ali and Muaawiya”. Meaning that our mother Aisha saw that the first applicability of this verse was between the state and another group that fought it. The verse: “And if the two groups from the believers dispute,” means to have the issue to be judged. Their statement is silly and ignorant.
Therefore this is silly and ignorant statement. However it’s clear that if they appeared in court the judgement would be against them so they ran away to sideline the true issue at hand.
They were committing crimes and oppressing others. So the others demanded arbitration. If they accepted arbitration then all would’ve seen their true beliefs of takfir and what led them to fight others. That was their ultimate plot. If they accept arbitration it would have exposed their evil. So they confused the issue by saying we don’t si with… this is ignorant. Whoever is called to judgement by the Quran whether it is ISIS, an individual, group, or family it’s obligatory for them to accept it.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: We sometimes see takfir or they declaring a Muslims to be outside of the fold of Islam, sometimes from people who are either new to practising Islam or they themselves are new Muslims as some of the fighters over there are new Muslims. What is the process to declaring someone to be outside of the fold of Islam, is it really a simple as some people make it out of it?
Sheikh Abu Qatadah: Takfir, and this is an important point, takfir is an Islamic judgement. It it. Let no one say it is an innovation or other than that. No. There is one verse in Surah Baqaraah that speaks about takfir three times. If a Shaykh said whole verse one time they would say he talks a lot about takfir. Just because there are those who misuse the ruling of takfir do we stop its just usage? If there is a way that is misused by someone doesn’t mean that we just closed the entire way. This is an important science. Making takfir on a person is a certainly a possibility.
Allah says in the Quran: “Indeed, those who reverted back (to disbelief) after guidance had become clear to them that is because they said to those who disliked what Allah sent down, “We’ll obey you in a part of the matter”. Allah knows what they conceal. This is proof that there’s such a thing as takfir. Takfir’s something that happened in history and there’s a religious process for it. Likewise it’s something that happens even today and there is a process for it. This issue of takfir is of the most dangerous issues in Sharia’. A man could be whipped depending on his sin. A man could have his wealth stripped away depending on the Islamic ruling by a scholar on a matter.
Takfir is a serious matter that can lead serious results of bloodshed and killing. It can lead to a man’s wife being taken from him. It can lead to him losing his wealth and his deeds nullified. It can lead to his entrance to the hellfire for eternity. Takfir is dangerous but possible. There’s an Islamic punishment for leaving the Deen: “Whoever leaves the religion is to be killed”. The biggest catastrophe is when a baby or an ignorant person who cannot even recall the principals for basic matter, and therefore finds the issue of takfir to be easiest. This is a true tragedy. A young man comes from Canada, Australia, or Europe who doesn’t even know Arabic and can’t properly call the iqaamah, then gives himself the right to kill an Islamic judge. As we’ve seen and heard from trustworthy sources.
One comes and kills a judge and says “He is a kafir!” If you ask him why he’s a kafir he doesn’t know!. We’ve seen examples of tragic takfir a sane person couldn’t speak of. I don’t want to convey too much because it is tragic to speak of. I swear by Allah, it’s as if they look for a reason to make takfir as a joke. These are cases that ae conveyed to me from their own ranks of those who’ve experienced this first hand and not simply hearsay. Therefore ISIS and other than them, because the crisis of takfir has spread, it’s not just ISIS! There are those who make takfir on ISIS. One extremist makes takfir on ISIS because ISIS doesn’t make takfir on those he makes takfir on! There are those who were killed because they made takfir on Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. They don’t make takfir on them because they are enemies, it’s because they don’t make takfir on those they make takfir on. And other ridiculous examples. The issue of takfir has science of its own to be done properly and responsibly by the people of knowledge.
Just this week I received news from those within ISIS ranks complaining that their judges, cannot decide the rulings on issues of blood, separation between a man and his wife, and other than that. Yet, they say with the quickest of ease that so and so is a disbeliever. They cannot rule between separating a man and wife yet they rule on separating a man from his Lord by way of takfir. It’s really strange. I have much news that I don’t want to spread as the people will say I am not telling the truth. Truthfully, the stories are real. It’s those from within ISIS who discuss this news with me regarding what they do.
Bilal Abdul Kareem: In statement just released approximately 2 or 3 days ago, The spokes man of ISIS Abu Muhammad al Adnani, stated that in the Khurasan region which is the areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan, there’re new groups that are connected to them and have a swore an allegiance to them, what do you think is the behind of this statement, what he is really trying to say by making this a public?
Sheikh Abu Qatadah: Firstly this man is ignorant. He’s a despicable person. I’ve not seen a rightly guided man on this path of Jihad who speaks well of him. So many of the Muslims make du’a against him. He is really ignorant. Whoever listen to him speak knows the level of his ignorance. The first time i heard him speak I knew he was a gangster. He has no Islamic knowledge. One of their members tried to display his knowledge and it was a joke. They displayed books he’s read and learned… what is this?. He’s a thug. In the ISIS world if you want to be a leader you have to be a thug. In the world of gangsters a man becomes the leader by being a thug. He goes into a rage, and kills and screams and beats up the people. Adnani is this type of person and this is known about him. HE has no knowledge. He’s merely a loudmouth and those who like this style like him. Some like leaders who scream, shout and kill. Even if he is an oppressor they still like him. Not everyone who is a Mujahid is a student of knowledge and there are those who like this style of person to be their leader. This is so in the world of criminal gangs and international political groups. There are those who follow this kind of ignorant person.
As for the second point when ISIS causes division amongst the Muslims the result is ruin.
The third point: The call of this Adnani, calls his people to fight the Mujahideen. Sir…. America couldn’t defeat Mulla Umar, and the world rose up against Taliban and didn’t vanquish them. America’s happy for them to fight the Taliban because they fight against Islam. This show’s you that this group is false and corrupt. They don’t enter a land except they corrupt it. They don’t enter a land of Jihad except they destroy the Jihad of those who’ve been fighting.
The Taaliban are a shining example from Allah, something our time has not seen, under the leadership of Mulla Umar. And then comes along the criminal Adnani with his lying and corrupt boss Baghdadi calling the people to fight the Taliban. How America must be enjoying this ISIS group. They are a rotten group. Will they have an effect? They won’t have an effect. Those who know Afghanistan know they won’t have an effect. So those two Baghdadi and Adnani along with those with them from the majlis ashura whom we know nothing about!. Perhaps they were Baathists remnants in Iraq who repented and became Islamic leaders of clandestine groups that burst onto the scene whom we have no idea who they are. We don’t know anyone who sits on this council of ISIS.
This group buys the loyalty of people. So the poor take their money and give the oath of allegiance because they can’t afford food. In Syria there are areas of the Mujahideen where people cannot find enough to eat and they’re forced to sell their weapons for food. As for Adnani he has millions. Some he got from the mujahideen, some from the enemies of Allah, some from Kings and others. So it is not unreasonable that these have entered their ranks. Therefore thse paid supporters will not remain loyal. Additionally, whatever is new is nice.
If we wanted to write a book about crimes of Baghdadi we could write many volumes. However ISIS is new in Afghanistan. Those with old issues and problems with the Taliban, what types would be attracted to ISIS?. The poor and those who are looking for trouble. So it’s not strange he found a group there. Soon there will be problems and discord with that group as well. So i’m not concerned about Afghanistan as this is a weak publicity stunt that won’t have much effect. Mullah Umar and the Taliban have a strong and secure presence in Afghanistan and control complete territories there. Also there are areas that they control by night but leaving during day because of drone strikes. The situation in Afghanistan is good. The corrupt situation must be made clear. Allah knows best but i believe the truth will prevail and the outcome will be for the people of the Sunnah.